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Tama Fibrestar
TamaHistorian
#1 Posted : 1/16/2007 8:41:32 PM
TamaHistorian

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<P>There's pics of Fibrestar concerts on my Fibrestar page of my site as well as the Your Sets link.</P>
<P>When Yamaha introduced fibreglass snares I remember asking if Hoshino would follow with their own and the answer is we're done with fibreglass for a while.</P>
author of THE TAMA DRUM GUIDE will I reprint it??
http://www.blurb.com
THE TAMA REFERENCE PAGE est. 2001
http://tamarchive.tripod.com
fibrestar
#1 Posted : 1/16/2007 10:17:53 PM
fibrestar

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<P>I'm game for a new glass kit to be made as well. I think it's a hit or miss thing for a company though. Drums go in fads, A fiberglass set might not be right for the times. Although if you asked me 5 yrs ago about acyrlics I would have never have guessed they would be popular right now.</P>
<P>I've said this before but if Tama does a fiberglass kit I hope they,1) Do it themselves and not sub it out. ie,Tempus or Monolith 2)&nbsp;Redo the Fibrestar shell the way it was in the past. Which is a semi-laborish process.</P>
<P>Since the 2nd series Fibrestar snare is the same as a octoban shell and they still make those, The "were done with fiberglass for a while" comment sounds lame. I think it could be done in that shell easier.</P><edited><editID>fibrestar</editID><editDate>2007-1-16 22:21:45</editDate></edited>
Met Black no inlay, SC binga,6x6,8x7,10x8,12x9,15x14ft16x14ft,24x18bd 20x14,18x14 Gong drums,4 color matched octos .Viper red Fibrestar 8,10,12,13,14,16,18,22.8 clear acrylic octos.
pit_s_xroad
#2 Posted : 4/16/2009 2:33:42 PM
pit_s_xroad

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Hello there...

I think Think it's time to bump this thread back to live... I have made some new pictures of my FS-kit... thought it would be nice to put them them on here... Dance

If you click on the pics you can see some more...



Compared to the last pictures I have added a 6" and a 8" Imperialstar concert tom, which I have covered myself with original Ludwig black oyster cover. They belonged to my 60s Ludwig kit. But since I sold it last year, these two guys have been left over and I included them to my FS-kit... same with added 18" Remo Roto Tom... all three are located on the left hand side next to 6,5 snare and hi-hat



Greetings from Germany,
PIT...Happy
~~~ Blues at midnight with Fibrestar in midnight-blue ~~~

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dmenace
#3 Posted : 4/16/2009 3:19:46 PM
dmenace

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Nice kit! I want that black snare...
aje_drum
#4 Posted : 4/18/2009 4:48:27 AM
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WARNING - LESSON IN THE NATURE OF FIBREGLASS PRODUCTS - LONG POST...FOR THOSE WHO LIKE TO KNOW WHY STUFF HAPPENS...

I'm just going to add my 2 cents to the previous discussion about fibreglass issues. I realise these posts were from a while ago, but most of the guys who put posts up are still active members so I thought it would still be relevent. I worked for may years making racing surfskis for the Surf Lifesaving industry here in Australia, so I have a bit of insight into the nature of the stuff, especially when you combine it with water :) There is alot of seemingly useless info here but, but it's all neccessary to expalin all of the issues brought up.

Molded fibreglass consruction 101. You build from the outside in, in that you have a mold (or a negative) of your product that will reflect the what your object will look like. The mold must be perfect as any imperfection will be visible in your final product. If the mold is shiney, so will the product you pull from the mold. If the mold has a scratch, you will have the opposite of a scratch in your product. You wax your mold (just like waxing a car) to give it a shine, then normally you use a gelcoat, which is like thick, resin based paint in whatever colour you want your product to be and paint it on your mold. Gelcoats are waterproof. When it dries (cures), you put layers of fibreglass matting on the back, force your resin (liquid plastic) to soak into the glass, wait for it to cure, pop it out of the mold, and viola. Hit it with a polish and that is as good as that product will ever look. This is exactly how the skis were made. Hand laid using both chopped strand and woven mats (among other materials), and they all were exactly 18 feet long and had to weigh at least 18kg and no more 18.2 kg. That's the difference of a drinking glass of resin for the entire 18 foot length, so we had to be very cosistent with materials.

Contrary to popular belief, fibreglass itself is not waterproof. The fibres need to be completely enclosed in resin (or gelcoat) to stop water soaking into the fibre. A sanded surface potentially exposes fibres to the outside world.

On to the fibrestars. The picture of the stripped drum with the lamp inside is the most revealing one...

This 'xray' shot shows that the drums are completely constructed of what is referred to as chopped strand. Tama also constantly made the point that Fiberstars were "hand laid". From that we can assume that it was chopped strand mat. So layers of 'choppy' are hand laid in a mold into which resin of some sort is added (with something like a paint roller) until all the glass is impregnated with it, and is allowed to cure. The other (not hand laid) chopped strand option is to spray the already resin impregnated fibres from a special spray gun like it was paint (the gun has a big nozzle!) which is super messy and difficult to insure a perfectly consistent thickness of material. This is the process they would use for making large boats and the like. If it were woven (like we see in carbon fiber now days) it would have that distinctive regular criss-cross pattern somewhere in the mix of that photo. All we see is a random fibers in many directions.

Chopped strand is essentially fairly thick glass fibres cut to random lengths and loosely bonded together in layers. The bonding agent dissolves when you add resin. The thickness of fibres within a particular weight designation of mat is pretty consistent, and the matting has a not-perfect-but-close-enough thickness as a final sheet or mat. There's lots of different thicknesses and fibre weights available. Individual classes of it are designated by weight-in-grams-per-square-metre of mat, give or take a few grams, like a 225 choppy or a 150 choppy. This stuff creates a finished product that is dense and is strong torsionally (that is it doesn't like to flex or bend) but not as strong laterally (easier to tear than a woven mat). These are attributes we'd like to see for a drumshell...high torsional rigidity means it wants to stay in the shape it was molded - round) although a bit of weave would have been nice to see where the lugs and mount attach to stop the fixtures wanting to migrate to the edge of the shell when under tension. The shell is probably thick enough to prevent that from happening.

Most resins used in the fibreglass industry are either epoxy or polyester, both of which have differnet properties. Polyester is the most popular because it is heaps cheaper and alot easier to work with. Not to mention less carsinogenic. Epoxy is the best stuff to use for carbon fibre as polyester doesn't inpregnate the carbon as successfully on a microscopic level. But epoxy goes yellow quicker than polyester when exposed to UV light, and as mentioned is expensive. Both resin types are a 2 part mix. The basic resin and a catalyser that chemically reacts with the resin in order to cure it. During the curing process, heat and fumes are produced, the same as most chemical reactions. The more catalyst is added, the more violent the reaction (more heat and fume) but curing time is reduced. Too much catalyst and you start a fire, not enough and the reaction may not take place at all.

Resin may be still tacky even when cured if it does not have wax added to it. But wax prevents the resin from impregnating the glass fibres properly. The non-waxed tackiness also makes the next process in construction bind or stick to the last job. For instance, you want the initial laminating resin of a surfboard to get into the fibregalss layer properly and you still want it tacky so that the next stage will stick to it. This 'filler' resin is to fill all the little holes left by the little spaces in the glass weave having the resin drain out of the by gravity before it cures. This filler adds to the overall thickness, and stops the fibres being exposed to the elements. By adding wax (usually wax suspended in a styrene solution which is compatible to polyester resins) the final product is not tacky, but requires sanding to create a rough surface to get anything to bind to it. The rough sanded surface has a greater surface area than a glossy one on a microscopic level creating better adhesion. Wax makes the resin more glossy when cured and it is able to be polished to a hard shine, just like the car.

So onto our Fiberstar issues. They were constructed without a coloured gelcoat with resin that had wax already in it so the inside would not be tacky. Multiple layers of choppy, impregnated with resin probably a couple of layers at a time. If you tried to do a thickness like those shells in one go, it would be impossible to get the resin all the way to the outer surface. So you do a couple of layers, wet it out, use a metal roller to push the resin into the glass, lay on some more choppy, and repeat till you get your desired thickness. You must finish the job before the resin stars to cure. I would expect that they then spun the molds to use centrifical force to stop the drum sagging under gravity, otherwise the shells would be thicker at the bottom.

If it were up to me, I'd gelcoat the colour onto a shiney waxed mold, hand lay choppy quickly with a fairly hot unwaxed laminating resin to prevent sagging, with a couple of layers in the middle of woven cloth for the lugs and tom mount and increase lateral rigidity, spin it till it goes off (cures), then shoot a waxed gelcoat inside like they do on a boat to waterproof it. The cut bearing edges will still allow water, but as a rule I'd want to keep them dry anyway. As already noted though, the Fiberstars were considered very labour intensive as they were, let alone my extra steps.

1. Painting - The reason gelcoat is used is that being resin based, it binds molecularly with the resin used to impregnate the glass, becoming one. Resins will over time (years) continue to leech fumes through their surface into the air. That's why an old fibreglass product still smells like resin. As a result, paint will never properly adhere to resin. It will for a time, but eventually the fumes will lift the paint.

2. Sticky - If they are still sticky after all this time, then not enough wax was added to the resin used to make those particular drums. You can't add the wax ahead of time unless you are in a climate controlled environment. Differences in temperature and humidity alter cure times and the amount of wax needed to make a hard surface.

3. Gelcoating after the fact - because gelcoat is by, comparison to paint, quite low viscosity (thick), you invaribly get what's usually referred to a 'orange peel', where the surface is not very smooth. If you thin it out, then it wants to run off the surface and sag, and the colour doesn't cover so well. If you have to sand it to flatten it out, then you will be forever to get it reasonably shiney. Lots of work. Ok for a labour of love, not if you have to pay someone else. The metal flake finishes are usually shot onto the back of a clear with a colour gelcoat behind it. I've never seen it done well shot onto the outside of an existing product, because you have to sand it flat to get rid of orange peel and you begin to expose the flake.

Way too much time on my hands today... :)
Starclassic Maple Marine Blue Fade with Brushed Nickel hardware / Artstar Natural Cordia on Starcasts / Vintage Superstars Aquamarine / My Tamas of yore
Wanting Starclassic Maple in MBF 20x16 Bass Drum, Artstar Cordia impossible to find 20x14 Gong Bass (or Starclassic Bubinga Elite) or equally unobtainable 20x18 FT, Vintage Superstar (or Granstar Custom) Aquamarine 20x14 Gong Bass and 20x18 FT.

PC445H 14x5½ Hand Hammered Copper, GR958 14x8 Superstar Gibraltar, AS658 14x8 Artstar Cordia, AW628 14x8 Solid Maple, SMS55 14x5½ Starclassic Maple, Custom 14x5 Powermetal Steel, PBZ340 14x4 Bronze, AM155-10 10x5½ Artwood Maple
Wanted Snares - Mastercraft Series RW258 14x8 Superstar Rosewood, BE658 14x8 Artstar BEM, CF758 14x8 Artstar Birch/Carbon Fiber, AW458 14x8 Superstar in Aquamarine
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Gold Starclassic hardware for sale! Lots of lugs VGC bass drum lugs & complete drum lots 8/10/12/14/18FT toms in fair to good condition, 1 below average condition bass drum. PM me!
pit_s_xroad
#5 Posted : 4/18/2009 8:06:23 AM
pit_s_xroad

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aje_drum wrote:
WARNING - LESSON IN THE NATURE OF FIBREGLASS PRODUCTS - LONG POST...FOR THOSE WHO LIKE TO KNOW WHY STUFF HAPPENS...

...

1. Painting - The reason gelcoat is used is that being resin based, it binds molecularly with the resin used to impregnate the glass, becoming one. Resins will over time (years) continue to leech fumes through their surface into the air. That's why an old fibreglass product still smells like resin. As a result, paint will never properly adhere to resin. It will for a time, but eventually the fumes will lift the paint.

...


Hi there...

wow... so I am a lucky guy that I never stripped it and tried to paint it...Think
thanks for this excellent post... Clap

Cheers
PIT... Happy
~~~ Blues at midnight with Fibrestar in midnight-blue ~~~

My Drums
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pit_s_xroad
#6 Posted : 7/14/2009 6:18:42 AM
pit_s_xroad

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Hi there...

...just recently discovered this nice computer toy MovieMaker... so I put together a little slideshow movie about my good ole Fibrestar and used a drumsolo I played on it a few years ago as soundtrack... and uploaded it to YouTube...

nothing to freak out, but it was fun to do learn this and doing it...

here it is... CLICK :-)

Greetings

PIT... Happy
~~~ Blues at midnight with Fibrestar in midnight-blue ~~~

My Drums
My Facebook
My YouTube
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