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The "MADE IN CHINA" Tagline Is Already Making The Rounds!
sandman
#1 Posted : 2/16/2010 7:24:23 AM
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I know, this argument is getting old and tiring to a few of us around here but I just had to put out there an "I TOLD YOU SO"....When I first sounded off about the Starclassic production moving to China after we all got the bomb dropped on us during Winter NAMM last month. One of my first statements about my distaste for what effect this will have on Tama Starclassic line of drums was that you will see sellers on Ebay and even dealers touting the tagline "These are Japanese Made Drums, Not the cheap China Drums". Well, I was perusing Ebay since I couldn't sleep and the tagline showed up...the Tama Dealer didn't make a big deal out of it, more like he put the little statement in his auction listing to reassure any buyer that Hey, these are NOT the China made junk....No he didn't use those words but that is what I take from it. Here's a copy of his Ebay Listing below..notice the suttle nature of reassuring the buyer that they are not made in China? http://cgi.ebay.com/TAMA...n_0?hash=item414d133a8b

THIS TAMA DRUMSET INCLUDES:

10x8" Rack Tom with Starcast Mount (new style starcast)
12x9" Rack Tom with Starcast Mount (new style starcast)
14x14" Floor Floor Tom with legs
16x16 Floor Tom with legs
22x18" Bass Drum - VIRGIN!!
Starcast Tom Mounts on toms
TAMA Add-on tom arm clamps, just attach to a cymbal stand
BLACK Front Bass Drum Head
ALL TOM MOUNTING ARMS & CLAMPS!!!
MADE IN JAPAN, not Chinese product
BLUE SLIK Wrap Finish with Brushed Nickel Hardware
100% MAPLE SHELLS


This just proves my point all along that the Starclassic name has been cheapened and devalued by the mere association with being made in China. All of us who spent big bucks on our Japanese Handcrafted Starclassics now have to suffer the indignity of some hick coming up to us at a gig and going " Hey man, is that them new drums they make in China?" even though in the back of your mind you know they were handmade by a highly skilled, competent and proud Japanese Craftsmen just for you! That warm fuzzy feeling, that specialness, has been taken away and shoved into a shipping container headed for China aboard the SS WEDONTCARE. Damn I do get stirred up easily these days. Naughty Wall
aje_drum
#2 Posted : 2/16/2010 8:25:04 AM
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No ambiguity as to where these babies were custom made (just what they were made of...lol)



The early decals didn't have the shell material. But the only other option was birch, and their decal had the silver and gold reversed.

Yes, yes I know...dusty. I'll get to it...
Starclassic Maple Marine Blue Fade / Artstar Cordia / 80’s Superstars Aquamarine / My Ex Tamas
Wanted Starclassic Maple MBF 20x16 BD, Artstar Cordia (or Starclassic Bubinga NCD) 20x14 Gong Bass or equally unobtainable 20x18 FT, 80's Superstar (or Granstar Custom) AQM 20x14 Gong Bass, 26x16 BD
Snares PC445H 14x5½ Hand Hammered Copper, GR958 14x8 Superstar Gibraltar, AS658 14x8 Artstar Cordia, AW628 14x8 Solid Maple, SMS55 14x5½ Starclassic Maple, Custom 14x5 Powermetal Steel, PBZ340 14x4 Bronze, AM155-10 10x5½ Artwood Maple
LowPhreak
#3 Posted : 2/16/2010 11:16:05 AM
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We knew it was inevitable, and with everyone so desperate to sell their wares to stay in biz today, no time was lost with some of them as in that listing above. Anything you can use to get an 'edge' to sell product - :rolleyes: - now it's "Japanese vs. Chinese SC's".

This is why I'm SO fed up with the situation today - everybody sounds like a f*cking used car salesman and there's a corporate logo/advert on everything (well, not quite everything...they haven't painted them on ALL the pavements and every tree & blade of grass yet - but give it time). More than ever, you have to check out and research almost everything you buy or do to guard against the snake oil or dangerous or useless, phony content. Liar The US has turned into one big, corporate, cheap-ass Sham Wow commercial.






audiotech
#4 Posted : 2/16/2010 11:28:21 AM
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I saw the same description with the "Japan Made" comment when looking through EBay the other day. I wonder if these same sellers will hold their heads up in pride when they say their Starclassic products are now made in China, I for one don't believe so.

Dennis
miniportnoy
#5 Posted : 2/16/2010 1:45:57 PM
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He did have a just a slight bit of a, "made in China=bad" vibe goin' on in that single line (although it doesn't seem that bad). 'Tis unfortunate that this move may soil the TAMA name.
TAMA, Sabian, Evans, Vater

Tama Starclassic Performer B/B in Smokey Indigo Burst: 22x18 BD, 8x7 TT, 10x8 TT, 12x9 TT, 14x12 FT, 16x14 FT, Starphonic Brass Snare
sandman
#6 Posted : 2/16/2010 11:10:30 PM
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Glad to know I am not alone in my thoughts about all this. Looks we are all on the same page now. Of coarse, everyone is entitled to their own opinion about the issues with China. If I was rich, I would hire all the laid off Japanese Tama Drum Craftsman and start my own drum company right here in the states. I'd pay them right, give them benefits, a great work environment to stimulate creativity and pride but that's only a dream. If I won the lottery tomorrow, I would certainly act on that dream.
LowPhreak
#7 Posted : 2/16/2010 11:34:10 PM
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And we need more guys like you, sandman.

Related to all of this as we have discussed on the other threads, I would highly recommend reading or listening to anything by people such as Dr. Michael Hudson, Richard C. Cook, Paul Craig Roberts, Chris Hedges, Shamus Cooke, Marc Faber, Gerald Celente, etc. Here's a very good recent interview of Dr. Hudson on Bonnie Faulkner's show "Guns & Butter": > Link <





Tron Ruiz
#8 Posted : 2/17/2010 12:39:19 AM
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I don't think anyone doubted that from now on people would have to specify the country of origin of Starclassics.

I don't get your point.
1975 Ludwig Vistalite in green 14x22, 8x12, 9x13, 16x16
1972 Ludwig Big Beat in blue silk, 14x22 or 14x24, 9x13, 10x14, 16x16
2006 Starclassic Performer all birch in emerald sea fade 18x24, 9x12, 16x16
Pearl Dennis Chambers snare
Tama Artwood 6x14, 14 ply birch Piano Black
miniportnoy
#9 Posted : 2/17/2010 6:00:12 PM
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yeah, true, he didn't really have that much of an anti-China vibe. Him putting the "not Chinese product" line does have a slight bit of that vibe, but not overly so.
TAMA, Sabian, Evans, Vater

Tama Starclassic Performer B/B in Smokey Indigo Burst: 22x18 BD, 8x7 TT, 10x8 TT, 12x9 TT, 14x12 FT, 16x14 FT, Starphonic Brass Snare
LowPhreak
#10 Posted : 2/18/2010 12:31:19 AM
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Tron - you're not making a lot of sense to me. Obviously, YOU missed the point.





Tron Ruiz
#11 Posted : 2/18/2010 3:11:43 PM
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ok
1975 Ludwig Vistalite in green 14x22, 8x12, 9x13, 16x16
1972 Ludwig Big Beat in blue silk, 14x22 or 14x24, 9x13, 10x14, 16x16
2006 Starclassic Performer all birch in emerald sea fade 18x24, 9x12, 16x16
Pearl Dennis Chambers snare
Tama Artwood 6x14, 14 ply birch Piano Black
kpi
#12 Posted : 2/19/2010 10:37:44 AM
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the way some of you guys talk it's like you think they are making drums in a field somewhere. if you actually go to china and see the automation in these factories you would be surprised. I never got the whole country of origin debate anyway. it's like fender in the 70s raving about cheap Japanese instruments which turned out the were producing superior quality in every way. I think people sometimes forget that the cnc routers they use in Indonesia, china japan & us are all the same. just because they pay low wages don't mean they are less capable. imagine trying to compete for employment in a population of a billion. you'd work for free just to get the job that's global economics unfortuantly
miniportnoy
#15 Posted : 2/19/2010 12:16:46 PM
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well said , kpi!
TAMA, Sabian, Evans, Vater

Tama Starclassic Performer B/B in Smokey Indigo Burst: 22x18 BD, 8x7 TT, 10x8 TT, 12x9 TT, 14x12 FT, 16x14 FT, Starphonic Brass Snare
LowPhreak
#13 Posted : 2/19/2010 1:59:28 PM
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kpi wrote:
the way some of you guys talk it's like you think they are making drums in a field somewhere. if you actually go to china and see the automation in these factories you would be surprised. I never got the whole country of origin debate anyway. it's like fender in the 70s raving about cheap Japanese instruments which turned out the were producing superior quality in every way. I think people sometimes forget that the cnc routers they use in Indonesia, china japan & us are all the same. just because they pay low wages don't mean they are less capable. imagine trying to compete for employment in a population of a billion. you'd work for free just to get the job that's global economics unfortuantly


As I've pointed out on other threads here, that's exactly what the corporate CEO's, bankers, and politicians WANT you to think - that globalization is inevitable and we should just "get used to it". To put it simply, that's bullsh*t and only benefits THEM in the long run, not you or I or 90% of the population of developed nations. Globalization is NOT inevitable. It's merely an artificial creation of the elites.

mini, we already know that you're just shooting from the hip and don't know a helluva lot about the real facts and intricacies of these subjects. If you DID realize what this means and what it'll do to YOUR own future, you'd be fighting it at every chance, not cheering "RAH RAH!" every time someone supports this outsourcing and destruction of people's jobs for the sake of getting cheaper prices.

NO sir. There is a much LARGER issue here. It's not just about whether China can make HQ Tama drums as the Japanese do. Just like when the Japanese Hoshino workers are sent to China to train the new workers there, they are actually assisting their own downfall. Any of us are doing the same when we buy cheaper products from outsourced companies - we're screwing ourselves long-term for the short-term temptation of lower cost.

What this will do is lower the standard of living in any country that allows it to continue. The REAL living standards of avg. US households has steadily declined since the 1970's, has accelerated more recently, and is getting worse. All you have to do is WAKE THE HELL UP and look around you. Or, as Dr. Michael Hudson and others have often said, the ultimate goal is to take any extra income you might have over and above what you need to survive, and drain it off to the rich elites (CEO's, banks) through lowered wages, tax breaks & bailouts for the wealthy and corps off the backs of the taxpayers, and increasing debt on the population.

The ugly and sobering TRUTH is: if allowed to continue, globalization in all of its forms will cause US, Japan, Europe and other developed nations to be similar to if not as bad as China and others are right now.





aje_drum
#14 Posted : 2/19/2010 4:52:09 PM
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wrote:
LowPhreakThe ugly and sobering TRUTH is: if allowed to continue, globalization in all of its forms will cause US, Japan, Europe and other developed nations to be similar to if not as bad as China and others are right now.


True that. What we are facing through globalization is 'averaging' of the living conditions of all of us. Not by raising those at the lower end of the scale. The people we allow through apathy (or the mistaken belief that they are doing a good job) to make the decisions will inevitably do it to serve themselves. Ultimate power corrupts ultimately.

My knowledege of global economics (and reaistically those here in Australia) is, by my own admission, fairly scant. But it is a simple truth that those further up the food chain feed on those below. The movers and shakers do not move and shake to benefit the greater good. They never have...a 100% failure rate proves they never will. They will just jedi-mind-trick all of us by telling us enough times how good a job they are doing.
Starclassic Maple Marine Blue Fade / Artstar Cordia / 80’s Superstars Aquamarine / My Ex Tamas
Wanted Starclassic Maple MBF 20x16 BD, Artstar Cordia (or Starclassic Bubinga NCD) 20x14 Gong Bass or equally unobtainable 20x18 FT, 80's Superstar (or Granstar Custom) AQM 20x14 Gong Bass, 26x16 BD
Snares PC445H 14x5½ Hand Hammered Copper, GR958 14x8 Superstar Gibraltar, AS658 14x8 Artstar Cordia, AW628 14x8 Solid Maple, SMS55 14x5½ Starclassic Maple, Custom 14x5 Powermetal Steel, PBZ340 14x4 Bronze, AM155-10 10x5½ Artwood Maple
miniportnoy
#16 Posted : 2/20/2010 12:19:30 AM
miniportnoy

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LowPhreak - Let me clear something up for you... I just said, "well said." I didn't say, "I agree with you." Don't assume please. No need to bring up the past. The point that I agreed with 100% is when kpi said, "the way some of you guys talk it's like you think they are making drums in a field somewhere. if you actually go to china and see the automation in these factories you would be surprised. I never got the whole country of origin debate anyway. it's like fender in the 70s raving about cheap Japanese instruments which turned out the were producing superior quality in every way. I think people sometimes forget that the cnc routers they use in Indonesia, china japan & us are all the same. just because they pay low wages don't mean they are less capable."

It does seem like you guys are talking about the switch as if the sky was falling. You guys need to calm down a little, it's not the end of the world. Besides if you don't believe globalization is inevitable, then you shouldn't be worried, right?
TAMA, Sabian, Evans, Vater

Tama Starclassic Performer B/B in Smokey Indigo Burst: 22x18 BD, 8x7 TT, 10x8 TT, 12x9 TT, 14x12 FT, 16x14 FT, Starphonic Brass Snare
rez69
#18 Posted : 2/20/2010 12:45:17 AM
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LowPhreak has a such very good handle on what is going on here. I just dont get why this is so hard to understand. It is so perfectly clear. And mini, come on man, well said means that you agree with the point being made. Stop taking everything as a personal attack on you or you will keep getting attacked.
Many Changes being made to my arsenal. Updates coming.
kpi
#19 Posted : 2/20/2010 1:05:33 AM
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the golden age of manufacturing america experiences in the 50's moved to japan in the 70's, india in the 90's and china in the 2000's. its just the way it is.

people are hungry, strive for a better life, achieve it, get comfortable, then get complacent, then get obese. different countries are at different stages. the US is towards the end of the cycle.

look at a fender strat from the late 50's early 60's everyone wants one and will pay 100,000 bucks, cause there was nothing to compare it against at the time. now you can get a 2009 fender strat from indonesia for about 90 bucks. i would suggest that on scale, leo fender was paying his factory workers the same or less than a guy working in china gets now.

its not that americans are losing quality of life or jobs, its just that the rest of the world caught up to her in different points over the last 60 years. regardless of race, religion or culture, most all people want a tv, a car & a house. its evolution baby.
sandman
#23 Posted : 2/20/2010 1:55:15 AM
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I'm too fat, too old, and too tired to argue anymore.Eh Carry on, I will keep reading.Shifty The level of conviction and passion on this subject is still a VERY worthy read. Talk amongst yourselves.Drool
miniportnoy
#24 Posted : 2/20/2010 11:37:59 AM
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rez69 - how is this, "mini, we already know that you're just shooting from the hip and don't know a helluva lot about the real facts and intricacies of these subjects," not a personal attack? How can you not see that as a personal attack, he used my username? Assuming stuff about people is inconsiderate and a lot of the time incorrect.

Listen, kpi is right, it's not that the US or Japan is losing quality of life or jobs, it's that the rest of the world is catching up. It's sorta like a race, the US was in first but the other teams are making a recovery. And I'll say it again, if you don't believe globalization is inevitable, then you shouldn't be worried, right?

I'm gonna stop here and not argue anymore than this, because I don't want it to turn into another several page argument.
TAMA, Sabian, Evans, Vater

Tama Starclassic Performer B/B in Smokey Indigo Burst: 22x18 BD, 8x7 TT, 10x8 TT, 12x9 TT, 14x12 FT, 16x14 FT, Starphonic Brass Snare
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