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Playing outdoors? Questions
yyzt4e
#1 Posted : 8/23/2017 12:43:01 PM
yyzt4e


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So I am here asking what I did wrong, I had a friendly gathering at a friends land this weekend and played some music. I think I got stuck in the rut of what sounds good to me does not out front. I have a 10, 12, 16 and 20 kick. I run Aquarian Super 2 on the toms and G1's on the reso side. Kick has a SK1 batter and a ported reso. It sounded good to me like stated. Had a friend sit in for a few and it sounded like everything was choked/dead out front at about 20 feet or greater. I think I have seen something before about tuning higher than normal and not to use any kind of muffling. Can anyone verify this and or point me in the right direction please. Feel like after this my whole perception is out of whack. Im suppose to sit in with them again this weekend at a bar gig on the patio, what if anything should I do to fix this issue.
Starclassic_Scott
#2 Posted : 8/23/2017 2:02:07 PM
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This is something that takes trial & error--and lots of patience--to overcome.

I have learned to tune/adjust my kit so that it sounds GOOD 20'-30' away... (and in the mic's). From there, you learn to re-set in your brain what it should sound like from behind the kit. We need to worry LESS about what it sounds like from the playing position and get it to sound good "out front" and learn what that sounds like from the playing position.

I ran into this many times with friends: One time in particular, I was out front hearing him/them setup and sound-check. His tom & floor tom sounded choked and muddled with competing overtones and rings - like whacking a basketball. I heard HIM say from behind the kit: "WOW! These sound AWESOME up here..."

I had to burst his bubble and ask him to step out-front on the dance floor and walk around while **I** hit his toms and played. His face DROPPED. "What the hell...???". With a little bit of tweaking to his tuning (mostly of the reso-side)... we got it sounding MUCH better out front, but it didn't have that "perfectly muted thud" he loved to hear behind the kit.

Unless you play with your toms perfectly flat/horizontal... the audience is going to hear a lot of what radiates from your RESONANT heads (when un-mic'ed / acoustic) and if they are not tuned correctly to enhance the batter tuning, they will sound crappy out front.

If you Moongel your toms after tuning them to deaden some overtones/ring... be aware that ACOUSTICALLY, the bottom head is NOT being dampened and the energy of each hit will still excite the reso-head without hindrance. If **IT** doesn't sound good, YOU won't sound good.
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yogi98 on 8/23/2017(UTC), pontiyak on 8/23/2017(UTC)
yyzt4e
#3 Posted : 8/23/2017 2:11:47 PM
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Thanks, Im guessing to make sure I have some extra time to tweak it and get out front. So, you mentioned the reso side tuning and I understand that. How about the batter side. I have read somewhere else that this type of situation the tuning should be at optimal resonance of the shell to sound well out front. Its so new to me as I have always been going through a PA. I appreciate it.
Starclassic_Scott
#4 Posted : 8/23/2017 2:17:13 PM
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Just to chime-in from a DIFFERENT perspective: Not knowing what your setup location was like, I must say that your surroundings have a **LOT** of influence on your sound. It could affect the sound the audience hears... the sound YOU hear... or both.

One outdoor venue that we (one of my bands a few years ago) used to perform at routinely was a covered concrete bandstand with a back-wall with open front and sides. I had setup in the "typical" place; up against the back-wall area up on the raised-concrete platform... for almost EVERY GIG we had ever done there. As a power trio, it *DID* distance us a little from each other... the two of them upfront and me a bit in the back. I tended to do about 35%-40% of the lead vocals and ALWAYS provided harmonies, so one of our last gigs, I decided I wanted to be "closer" to the other guys like we USUALLY are at other gigs.

This meant coming OFF the riser area of concrete and down front... about 4-feet from the edge of the stage in the middle. It **LOOKED** much better and we were so much happier to be able to play-off each other - until I went to sound-check.

I started hitting the toms... hitting the floor tom... the snare... WTF...??? It sounded AMAZINGLY HORRIBLE. Everything just "died" after you hit it. A black-hole... a sonic vacuum... AAaaaaUGH! We had ALREADY moved ALL of the PA, wiring, lights, EVERYTHING... it was TOO LATE to go reposition. That's it... we had to go with it.

So - apparently, it Mic'ed just fine and sounded okay out-front... but from "MY" position, it was THE WORST my drums have ever sounded at a gig. It was a MONUMENTAL STRUGGLE to "pretend" that I was into it and having fun. I wasn't... but you plaster-on the smile and you put-on the show anyways. When it was all said and done, it was **ONLY** from my seated drumming position where it sounded like absolute SH*T. Everywhere else, they sounded normal/good.

My point...? Even if you change NOTHING with your tuning and they sound AMAZING in one place... they may need to be tweaked for a different location. Or even more-interestingly... NOT be tweaked, but you need to re-adjust YOUR expectations to support the sonic realities. :)
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pontiyak on 8/23/2017(UTC)
yyzt4e
#5 Posted : 8/23/2017 2:38:02 PM
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I see what your saying. Its a crap shoot at times. I will be playing with the again this weekend on a concrete patio that is covered with a vinyl top all four side open to the air. I will be centered in the back, the rest of the band will be in front of me, typical setup and the patrons will all be at the same level. Im just gonna make sure I tune my best at the gig and cross my fingers.
CB_Photo
#6 Posted : 8/23/2017 7:28:30 PM
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I understand your situation, yyzt4e. Since encountering the same situation, I don't dampen my drums at all. I let 'em thunder & ring in all their glory. I remove the pillows from inside the kick when there's no mic, too.
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pontiyak on 8/23/2017(UTC)
doublepedal
#7 Posted : 8/23/2017 10:33:55 PM
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Don't dampen dont muffle take everything you have in your drums out tune them a bit lower than ure use to as everyone has said what you hear behind is not what they hear in front get the kit off the ground just like home speakers you got to get em off the floor a simple makeshift plywood with 2x4 riser will do wonders to your sound
2012.- 9pc. Starclassic Performer B/B. (BNZ)
7x8,9x10,10x12,12x14,14x16,16x18" toms.
2-18x22" kicks (one virgin).
5.5 x14" matching snare
Speed Cobra single pedals & Road Pro hardware.
Sabian AAX Series: 14" Studio hats. 16,17,18,19" Raw Bell Xplosion crashes. 21" Stage ride. 20" Custom Vault china. 10,12" splashes.

2008.- 5pc. Imperialstar (PB).
12,13,16" toms.
18x22" kick.
5.5 x14" matching snare
Speed Cobra double pedal & Stagemaster hardware.
Zildjian ZHT Rock Series: 14" hats. 16,18" Fast crashes. 20" ride. 18" china. 8" splash.
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pontiyak on 8/23/2017(UTC)
pontiyak
#9 Posted : 8/23/2017 11:11:20 PM
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I'll probably never make it out of the basement, but I learned some good stuff here... Thanks.
yak
1974 Imperialstars Bop kit 24/14/16 (undergoing restoration).
1978 ImperialStar Saturn 12+1 Kit in Midnight blue.(outfit #8993).
1978 ImperialStar Mars 9 kit in Hairline chrome.(outfit #8909),plus 6/8/10/12 concert toms.
1979 SuperStar Super Sunburst kit 22/12/13/14/16 & 6.5" snare
1983 Superstars in Super Mahogany X-tra deep series 22/22/10/11/12/13/14/16/18. 6.5"snare & 8" split lug snare.
1976 Superstars in Custom Black 13/14/16/22X15 (restored)
1982/83 Superstars X-tra deep series in Cherrywine 22/12/13 (restored)
A plethora of snares, 1974-2013. vintage & custom.
Paiste Innovations series cymbals. Tama stands and pedals.
Managing to squeeze out a few nice kits, but it's a tough slog.
CB_Photo
#10 Posted : 8/24/2017 12:05:25 AM
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pontiyak;284310 wrote:
I'll probably never make it out of the basement, but I learned some good stuff here... Thanks.

My first surprise was playing in an outdoor stage (all-metal construction) with my beer can snare tuned for a rock gig (i.e., not tight). That same night I played in a small-ish club with heavy acoustic curtains and the snare sounded like I was humping a hippo. All the cut and edge was gone. So was my happiness.

My second surprise was at another small-ish club. After a couple sets, a friend of the guitarist asked to sit in. Out in front it sounded like a toy kit. While he was playing (quite well, too) I removed the pillows from the kick drum and the moongel from the toms. It was a big improvement, but the discovery still made me go outside and slam a few beers in disgust.
doublepedal
#11 Posted : 8/24/2017 1:35:24 AM
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Been there cb but I was a jerk and just said "GET OFF MY KIT"Naughty
2012.- 9pc. Starclassic Performer B/B. (BNZ)
7x8,9x10,10x12,12x14,14x16,16x18" toms.
2-18x22" kicks (one virgin).
5.5 x14" matching snare
Speed Cobra single pedals & Road Pro hardware.
Sabian AAX Series: 14" Studio hats. 16,17,18,19" Raw Bell Xplosion crashes. 21" Stage ride. 20" Custom Vault china. 10,12" splashes.

2008.- 5pc. Imperialstar (PB).
12,13,16" toms.
18x22" kick.
5.5 x14" matching snare
Speed Cobra double pedal & Stagemaster hardware.
Zildjian ZHT Rock Series: 14" hats. 16,18" Fast crashes. 20" ride. 18" china. 8" splash.
yyzt4e
#8 Posted : 8/24/2017 1:47:44 AM
yyzt4e


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doublepedal;284309 wrote:
Don't dampen dont muffle take everything you have in your drums out tune them a bit lower than ure use to as everyone has said what you hear behind is not what they hear in front get the kit off the ground just like home speakers you got to get em off the floor a simple makeshift plywood with 2x4 riser will do wonders to your sound



I would never have thought of that. So that gap of air boxed off should project the sound some, huh. I may have to try that and you say tune lower? seems people say to tune higher wide open.
dreamkastor
#12 Posted : 8/24/2017 8:10:14 AM
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I agree with going higher as it helps to project the sound out front more. The pitch drops as the sound travels out to the crowd - at least that's what I have heard.
I have an outdoor gig next month and it has been many years since I have done one. I'm wondering if I will be shocked by the sound. But I will be running in ears at least.
200? Starclassic Mirage Black Ice 6pc (10,12,14,14x6sn,16,22"x20 kick)
2006 Starclassic Performer Birch 5pc Red Sparkle Fade (12"14"16"14x6.5 snare 24" kick)
2006 Starclassic Bubinga 4pc in White Pearl w diamond inlay (10"12"14"22")
2005 Starclassic Performer Birch 5pc Black Magic (10"12"14"14x5.5 snare, 22"kick)
2002 Arstar Es 4pc Rock Chrome (12"14"16"24")
1998 Starclassic Maple Crimson Fade 8pc (10x10"12x11"14x12"14x5.5snare "16x16" "18x16" 24x18 kick x2)
1990 Artstar II Piano White 4pc (12" 13" 16" 22" kick)
Snares: Lars Ulrich steel, Kenny Aronoff 14x5 Trackmaster, 2004 Quilted Bubinga exotix 14x6" #75 of 300 MP 12" steel.
doublepedal
#13 Posted : 8/24/2017 1:17:43 PM
doublepedal


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Tuning lower because you took off or took out the dampening muffling agents. That is subjective. The main goal is to project you sound the ground is your enemy it will suck it right down as soon as it leaves your kit. The reason for a riser off the ground is it will take longer for the Soundwaves to dissipate. Any club concert hall has a riser of some sort. The drums are usually higher although for u to see the drummer and it looks cool there is this reason for it. To project the sound.
2012.- 9pc. Starclassic Performer B/B. (BNZ)
7x8,9x10,10x12,12x14,14x16,16x18" toms.
2-18x22" kicks (one virgin).
5.5 x14" matching snare
Speed Cobra single pedals & Road Pro hardware.
Sabian AAX Series: 14" Studio hats. 16,17,18,19" Raw Bell Xplosion crashes. 21" Stage ride. 20" Custom Vault china. 10,12" splashes.

2008.- 5pc. Imperialstar (PB).
12,13,16" toms.
18x22" kick.
5.5 x14" matching snare
Speed Cobra double pedal & Stagemaster hardware.
Zildjian ZHT Rock Series: 14" hats. 16,18" Fast crashes. 20" ride. 18" china. 8" splash.
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